The State of Deck Construction

Welcome to Aaron and Aislyn's first ever episode of Design & Conquer!

In D&C, we talk about card games, the design thereof, and whatever else may come to mind. Aaron and I are first time Kickstarter creators of the modestly successful Ivion, a competitive card game with an ECG (expandable card game) model.

The plan is to turn it into a podcast as time goes on and our skills improve, but here's our first shot at making things interesting!

In this episode, we talk about Richard Garfield's creation of Magic: The Gathering, his thoughts on what it would be, what it actually became, his legacy in Keyforge, and how it affects the card game industry going forward.

Aaron's thoughts are bolded and Aislyn's thoughts are italicized.

Do you know when Keyforge was...

Announced?

Yeah.

Uh, maybe... I think it was in July or August.

You don't sound that confident. *Laughs*

No, I'm pretty sure it was around then. I just don't know exactly when.

Anyways, earlier this summer, Fantasy Flight announced a game called Keyforge.

Yep.

It is a competitive card game that seems similar to Magic: The Gathering, but there is no deck building. That's its thing. When you buy Keyforge, you buy a 45 card deck which has a deck list card. That deck can only ever be played with that specific list. It isn't like Magic or Hearthstone—it has completely removed deck building. This is a game that was designed by Richard Garfield.

Maybe we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Perhaps we should talk about what we're planning on doing with this podcast slash transcript project?

It's not a podcast. At least, I don't think so.

No, it's not a podcast. It's talking turned into a written transcript.

Sure. Ah, let's cross the road here.

Okay. I probably won't keep this part.

That's fine.

*Laughs*

(I kept it anyways.)

Let's go now.

Yep.

Okay.

So, this project is lovingly titled 'Design & Conquest', because we love, I guess, conquering things.

Yeah. So, what we're going to be doing every month is going out, talking about game design, writing down our thoughts, and turning that into something that's at least somewhat interesting to read. We've only designed one game that has been released, so we may not know what we're talking about, but we're going to try our best.

Yeah, and sometimes its going to be about semi-random things. We may go off on tangents sometimes, but it's mostly going to be associated with the design of games, gravitating towards card games that we know about.

Hopefully it doesn't get too ramble-y, but, you know, we'll see.

That's what the transcript is for. *Laughs*

*Laughs* Yeah. Anyways, this week we were thinking about what we wanted to talk about, and what we landed on was deck building and customization in card games—

Yep.

—since that's the area we have the most experience with, and we felt like a good way to start this was talking about the newest addition to deck building, uh—

Keyforge.

—Yeah, Keyforge.

Keyforge was announced, and everyone is thinking that it's so interesting, so different, so innovative and so cool, and we haven't had a chance to play it ourselves yet, but it's getting launched—

This month.

—I think it's in a week or two.

Yeah. So, Keyforge is pretty interesting in that it's taken away deck building. Now, at first glance, this doesn't necessarily seem like a great idea.

Right.

One of the great strengths of a card game is that you can express yourself with the decks you make.

Yep.

So, it's a little questionable.

It is a little questionable, and I think there are a lot of people that would argue that it's really bad, because one of their favorite parts about playing a competitive card game is building their own deck. But it's interesting, because there's some pretty solid counterpoints to that argument. For every person that's into building their own deck, there's probably two or three people that look at that and think to themselves, 'there's no way I'm touching that.'

Yeah. I think that there are a few things that make deck building different than when Magic was first released and it was a huge craze.

There's a squirrel!

Yep, there's a squirrel.

*Laughs* That's going in.

Yep.

*Laughs*

Okay. So, I'm trying to think exactly where to start with Keyforge. There's a few points here. I think one of the important things to look at with Keyforge is the creator, Richard Garfield, who is also the creator of Magic: The Gathering.

One of the most famous game designers in the world.

Yeah. I think something that's important to understanding the context of Keyforge and its creation is to look into the history of the games Richard Garfield has designed. Specifically the history of Magic. For those of you that don't know, Aislyn and I are avid Magic players—

Mhm.

—And that love for card games is what inspired us to make our own game.

Oh yeah.

Back in 1993, Garfield made this game. Magic: The Gathering. And what's important to note is that Garfield made Magic: The Gathering for 1993.

Right. It was a different time.

It was a completely different time. The Internet functionally didn't exist. In Garfield's vision of Magic, he had a few assumptions that turned out to be false. Assumption number one was that it was a fun game that people were going to buy ten or so packs of, and that was going to be their collection.

Yeah, and I'm actually so happy that you—it's so interesting that you can recite this history off the top of your head, because it is really interesting if you're looking deep into the context of card games and what has led us to the point we're at now, and especially in the context of Keyforge.

Yeah, precisely. The first assumption Garfield made—I honestly can't blame him. It would be presumptuous to assume that people were going to be as avidly into Magic and this sort of game as ending up being the case.

Yeah, and let's remember that in 1993 when Richard Garfield made Magic, people didn't—there was Monopoly. Twister! Well, maybe not Twister. But these were the kinds of games people were playing. They weren't playing lifestyle games at that point. That was hardly a thing.

At the very least, that's definitely the case for America. I believe that there was an advanced board game craze—

Sure, sure.

—But there was nothing like this, and when Magic was shown off at Gen Con it was *the talk* of the town.

Yeah.

Everybody had an opinion. Good, bad, doesn't matter. Everybody wanted to talk about it. It was something that was immediately seen as 'this is something that is going to be huge.'

Yeah, and wasn't there an article that a specific reviewer or reporter—

Yeah, this is where I'm getting a lot of this information from, because this is 1993. I'm not alive.

Yeah.

Yeah. *Laughs* So, as the article put it, people discussed Magic in the same hushed tones that you would discuss politics or religion in. Everyone had a thought on it. It was huge. And then the article went on to predict—

That it was going to change the face of gaming, right?

—That it was going to completely reinvent how people saw gaming.

Yeah. Which turned out to be true, which is pretty crazy.

Yeah, so that was Garfield's first assumption. That people were only going to buy a few packs, and that was going to be it.

Yeah. So what's the context of that? What's the relevance of that pertaining to how Richard Garfield designed Magic?

So, that's what I was going to go into. Let's bring it back to deck building. That's a really good point. The second assumption that Garfield had was that, well, he didn't see the Internet coming.

Right.

His vision of Magic was that everybody bought some number of packs, and then they would trade. One of the biggest things that Magic was designed for was that there were always going to be cards you hadn't seen. There was no Internet where you could simply look up full lists of sets. Somebody from out of town would walk in and have a completely new card that you'd never seen before and you think, 'what the heck is going on?'

And that's crazy, and in that way, he was totally right. And that's amazing, because every time someone comes in with a new deck, you're probably going to see a card you've never seen before.

Mhm. And that was the thought. Deck building was going to be limited by the smaller card pools, and the people in your community. Richard Garfield did not conceive of a world where if you wanted a specific card, you could just go buy it.

Right.

So, one of the big things—

(Loud car noises in background)

Oh, this is going to be loud. Do you want to turn around?

Yeah, let's turn around. This is pretty noisy. We're walking down a—

We almost died! It was awful!

This is inaccurate. This is not true.

He pushed me into the highway!

Oh god, okay.

*Laughs*

Anyways. Aw, man, I totally lost my train of thought.

Sorry.

Ah, that's okay. So something that Richard Garfield planned for was that he could balance cards through rarity. If a card was rare, there would be less of those cards in any given playgroup.

Yeah, there would be less in your pool of Magic. Your comprehension of Magic, your world of Magic.

Basically. And if you wanted to summarize it, you could say that Richard Garfield's plan did not involve Magic becoming a huge hit, and it was designed for that. And because it was a hit, a lot of the fundamental ideas behind Magic turned out to not work. This is not to say Magic is a bad game.

No, obviously it worked out pretty well, let's be honest.

Yeah. It just didn't—

It didn't end up aligning with Richard Garfield's vision. I guess, what he wanted.

Yes.

That's what we've seen, especially with how he's been designing games now.

And Richard Garfield has been outspoken in the past, at the very least not wild about the game that Magic ended up becoming. I don't mean to speak for him, but it seems that he's a bit disappointed with how Magic became realized.

Yeah.

I believe that Keyforge is his attempt to fix the things that happened with Magic.

Right.

As in, 'Okay, if I let everyone customize their decks, an aftermarket will evolve. There will be trading, singles, cards will become really expensive...' Oh, and there's another thing. Richard Garfield strongly dislikes the cost behind Magic for competitive play.

Right. And that seems like one of the main things that Keyforge is trying to eliminate. Let's try to add a bit more context—did we talk about how Keyforge is sold?

Not sure, but let's give another summary.

Yeah, sure. To lead into our next talking points, Keyforge is sold in 45 card decks, and they're procedurally generated. Or, well, the cards aren't prodecurally generated. They're all the same cards and they have the same values, but their packaging is procedurally generated. So when you buy a 45 card Keyforge deck, it's going to be a completely unique deck with a completely unique card list.

Mhm.

Unlike a lot of other products. And you're not actually allowed to change that deck! You have a little card that tells you 'This is your deck. These are all the cards in it.' And that is the only legal deck list. So you buy the deck. And that's the deck. Now you have to learn how to play that deck. And because of that, because you can't swap out cards, there's not an aftermarket.

So, I had a thought.

Yeah?

Do you think—I put it to you—do you think there will be no aftermarket for Keyforge decks?

That's a really interesting question, because... well, who knows? *Laughs* Maybe we'll end up with a scenario where Richard Garfield designed the game in such a way to stop that, but it's possible that players will—

—Will buy and sell entire decks!

It's possible that players might say 'Well, screw that,' and just play, and buy and sell cards, but I think that that would be a debacle, for Fantasy Flight Games and for Richard Garfield.

Well, I wasn't thinking players would construct their own decks, but what if people sell their Keyforge decks.

Oh!

Yeah. In an aftermarket. Their entire Keyforge lists.

Yeah, yeah. In my opinion, that's a really worrying thing about Keyforge. Eventually, a meta is going to be established. Right? There are going to be cards that are unbalanced. If there are enough people that are playing—which it seems like there are going to be—people are going to figure out which cards are better, what combinations are really strong, and, yeah, I think it could turn out where decks are sold in the aftermarket and evaluated as 'Well, this deck has a combo that is known as a really good meta combo, or it has this card which is generally better than all other cards.' And it's very possible, if the meta becomes rigid, that a competitive player may not want to buy a random deck anymore! Because the chances of you getting a better deck than your best deck right now is going to be really slim. And you don't buy random decks anymore, you go on the aftermarket and find the decks that 'crit hit'.

Yeah.

Which is really worrying. Because in that world, I don't think the problem has been solved adequately. I think a new problem has been created.

Yeah. And this touches on something we haven't discussed yet. Aislyn and I are talking about customization and avoiding the world where people simply make the best decks. But we're not really talking about why we think that's a bad thing.

Right. We've talked about this a lot, so we're winding through points and making assumptions on topics we've already touched on.

I'm trying to think of a good way to explain this without sounding like a 'filthy casual'.

Oh, you—don't even lie though, you are a filthy casual.

Yes.

Accept it.

Aislyn and I generally have the opinion that games are—Actually, I'm going to go back to Richard Garfield, because he talked about this with Keyforge, and I think he did a good job summarizing this. 'Un-optimal game play can be more fun than optimal game play.'

Right.

That's a good way of explaining what we think about this. For those of you that have played Magic, there's this period of time where you just started playing. You haven't seen any of these cards, it's all new to you. Your friend's deck with Craw Wurm?

*Laughs*

That's the scariest thing you've seen. It's going to destroy you.

Yeah. That's the pinnacle of Magic power level for you. You haven't seen crazy combos, infinite Pauper nonsense, where you're turning your guy into—what is that silly white creature called?

Tireless Tribe?

Yeah! *Laughs* Tireless Tribe.

It's not an infinite combo. It's 20 power.

It's *infinite*. Completely endless.

*Laughs*

Anyways—

It's 21, actually.

—Yeah, that's the pinnacle of what you can comprehend Magic power level at as a new player. You haven't seen anything more than that in Magic. And at that point, you're a 'filthy casual', right? But you're having *so* much fun with it, because the limits you've established in your head are constantly being broken.

Yeah. And I think that—

Oh, are we walking into a school?

Yes, but it's Sunday. And they're doing some kind of fundraiser.

Oh yeah! They're selling cheap doughnuts!

When you don't know everything about a game, you aren't exposed to the greater context of a meta, the greatest foe to overcome is your friends. I think that's where I lie—when you're just playing with your friends and that is your local meta-game and that is what the game is to you—who you play then and there—that makes it a lot easier to compete.

I think a good way to explain that concept is that that's your current context for the game.

Mhm.

If you're playing with your friends, your game context is a much lower power level. Chances are, your friends aren't professionally competitive players.

This is the problem with the Internet, folks. *Laughs*

*Laughs* Darn kids and their Internet!

Part of me wants to say that the worst thing that happened to Magic was the Internet.

That's a bold statement.

It is, and let me back it up. This is, of course, discounting all the great things that the Internet has done to help Magic become the global force that it is today. And that's great. That's fine. Who cares?

*Laughs* Yeah, what does that matter?

Before the Internet, your big challenge was making a deck that can outmaneuver and beat Billy's deck. But now there are decks on the Internet that are crafted by professionals. Billy can go out and make that deck. Often times, it doesn't matter how clever you are. What matters is that Billy has that powerful deck.

The context was completely changed. It was elevated. You were two buddies that didn't really know what they were doing and having some fun—

Yeah.

—And Billy has now, I guess, 'ascended', jumped, multitudes and multitudes of power levels straight to the top by playing a 'net deck', as that's what they're called, that has essentially been constructed by the hive mind that is the Internet. All of these players from all over the world are coming together, playing thousands of games, and making these decks insanely good.

And let's take a step back and say that that's not inherently bad. Games at their most competitive are really cool, that's pretty fun.

Oh yeah, and it's interesting in it's own right.

Yeah.

Especially when two competent, equally skilled players are piloting two extremely good decks. That's generally really interesting.

Mhm. But the problem lies in this. You can, theoretically, create a massive, factorial number of decks. There are practically an infinite number of decks you can make in Magic. But when it comes to these professionally crafted decks, the number of decks that can stand up to them becomes pretty small. In some meta-games, there are only three or four reasonable decks to play.

Okay, so we've elaborated our point quite a bit, so what are we wrapping around to? What are we getting at?

Yeah, so we're wrapping back around to deck building. In Magic's case, if a player wants to continue digging deeper into Magic, the number of decks that become feasible to play rapidly dwindles. And for a vast majority of players that are invested in Magic, the number of decks that they created themselves and want to play becomes zero. For most people that enjoy that competitive thrill in Magic, there isn't choice. They know they can't make a deck that can compete with the meta.

To be fair, there are a lot of people that don't mind that. They play the meta, and that's great. The people that want to build their own decks and experiment are generally shut out, though, because they're an individual compared to the hive mind figuring out the best lists. There's also a lot of people that don't want to and also can't compete at the high skill levels to make these decks sing. So it's next to impossible for those folks to get involved in that.

I know what you mean. And that's honestly where I am. I love making decks, it's really fun and that's where I like to express myself, but when it comes to playing Magic, I'm not that great. My decks don't stand up to the meta decks, and I'm in a lose-lose situation. I can play a deck that I don't identify with, or I can play one that I do identify with and lose. I think the take away here is that I just need to get better at Magic. *Laughs*

*Laughs* Sounds like it.

Let's bring it back to Keyforge. I believe that one of the advantages of Keyforge's model is that by taking away deck building, Keyforge is making more decks feasible. It's allowing people to put their identity into their deck. Nobody else is going to have a deck quite like yours, and in the ideal situation, it's going to be able to stand up to everyone else's decks. This is assuming everything is balanced, of course.

Yeah, and the thing about Keyforge is that there are a lot of things that have to go right with this to really make it shine, and create what it's trying to be. First of all, the game has to be good, which I'm sure it will be. It was designed by Richard Garfield, it's being published by Fantasy Flight Games, so that's probably a check mark, but there are so many other things that it has to accomplish. Because they've taken all of the customization into their own hands, they have to do an absolutely incredible job. They can't put it on the player's shoulders and the community at large to make these decks good and fun. It's completely on them. So if they mess up, that is going to have shockwaves throughout the entire game. People can't fix that. For example, when Wizards of the Coast is designing Magic and the same for all these other card games, Ivion being another example, if Wizards messes up, if we mess up on cards, there are some that aren't fun or balanced or both, that's not a big deal. People are going to see those cards in the packs they get or the box they buy and they're going to say 'Whatever, these cards are lame, but there's all these other awesome cards I can put in my deck. There are all these other cards we can make awesome decks out of."

But if Keyforge ends up releasing some cards that are simply bad, Keyforge is saying 'I'm sorry, you have to run this card.'

Yeah, yeah. And it also means that every bad card that Fantasy Flight Games prints in Keyforge is another percentage contributor to decks that competitive players—

—Deem unplayable.

Deem unplayable, and it's going to be another percentage contributor to players thinking 'I don't want to buy random decks from my local store anymore, because, chances are, I might just get a bad deck.'

And this is where we see the trade-off there. Who is Keyforge trying to appeal to? I don't think it's the really competitive players.

Yeah.

And I think that is a good idea.

I think it is too, because in the grand scheme of things, those competitive players are the kind of player that sticks around, but they're a small percentage of players that could potentially be playing your game. I think a lot of card games are designed with those players in mind, and I think it makes those games more niche.

Yeah. And this is something that Aislyn and I have realized while making our own game. It was something that was hard to understand and difficult to take in because Aislyn and I love deck building—

Oh, we do.

—And customization is my favorite part of games. But that's not the case for many players.

Yep. For every person you find that says 'I love deck building and the insane amount of options,' you're going to find five or more people that say 'What's deck building? I don't even understand how to approach that. I don't even know what it means!'

'You're telling me that, not only do I have to learn this complicated game, but that I have to put in my time and effort to create a deck, which might not even be good.' That extra step is huge for a lot of folks, especially in the tabletop crowd in general.

Yeah, and there's been a big resurgence in card games and board games. Both of them. And there's a lot of people that like to play card games, but there's also a ton of people that like games without that daunting, extra step. There's a lot of games that people are playing that don't require prior knowledge to begin. And, well, that just makes sense! That's fundamental game design.

Yeah, and I think something you'll find is that the intersection between folks playing simpler party or euro games and those that play competitive card games actually isn't that much. They're all played on the table, but they're very different games. They attract very different types of people.

Yeah, and there's a huge difference between war games and the other genres we've laid out as well.

Aislyn, I have a question for you.

Sure.

Do you think that Keyforge is trying to bridge that gap?

I think it is trying to bridge the gap. I think Fantasy Flight Games is trying to push that with the more goofy, comical vibe that Keyforge has. And they chose a good direction to take that to appeal to more casual gamers. It seems like the plan is that some random guy that's just getting into the game can buy a deck, and that he'll be more or less effective against an established player that has a random deck. But, I like to be the devil's advocate regarding this issue, and I'm not sure it's going to work out. It's dependent on Fantasy Flight nailing it with every product release.

Yep. It's also important to note that Fantasy Flight has been willing to errata cards, and they may do that with Keyforge as well.

That's true.

Yeah.

The thing is though, is that that means the game becomes less approachable, which is a loss in it's own way.

Sure, it's less approachable, but probably to the people that don't really care.

Good point.

And for those of you who don't know, errata means that after a card has been printed, rules text or values printed on the card are changed, and new printings of that card are different. A card may do 3 damage and be deemed too powerful, and be printed in the future as 2.

You're right with your counterpoint, by the way. The players that care about that, the competitive players, are going to know about and adhere to that change, but for other players it doesn't really matter if that card does 2 or 3 damage. They're not going to know, but it's also not going to affect them. The power level is so much lower that things will probably balance themselves out.

Also, just so everyone knows, while we're throwing around the differences between casual and competitive gamers, we mean nothing pejorative in speaking about them in those terms. I'd classify myself as a casual gamer. Those are just the two terms for those types of players, and the different ways to find enjoyment in games.

I'm sure the people with pitchforks will be at your door in no time after we post this.

Mhm. Moving on, I think that, stepping away from Keyforge, there's another aspect of note in deck building. This has sort of been done before—this attempt to make deck building more accessible.

Ah, yes.

The other example of this is—

Smash Up.

—Smash Up. A 'shuffle-builder'. For those of you who don't know, the game comes with 'factions', each of 15-20 card pools. The factions can be anything from zombies to pirates or ninjas. All that good stuff. Gnomes, fairies, tricksters? I don't remember what it's called.

Yeah.

Anyways, your box comes with these faction pools. How do you play? You pick two factions, you shuffle them together, and that's it. The only thing you need to do is pick two, shuffle them, and start playing.

And it's really approachable because it also has a silly mood. You have your laser dinosaurs and your ninjas. And you think to yourself, 'Well, my dinosaurs are also ninjas.' And that's cool, you don't have to know anything about the game. It gives you this easy, fun theme—you know what dinosaurs are, you know what ninjas are, you know what pirates are, and you pick two that sound fun, you smash them together, and you play. It's that simple.

Aislyn and I could go on a tangent about some of the pitfalls that Smash Up has created for itself—

I think most of those involve the game play itself.

Exactly, and I don't think those reasons are in the scope of this discussion. The best thing that I think Smash Up has done is make customization more accessible.

Yeah, and what's cool to me is that Smash Up and the shuffle-building experience is something we haven't really seen before and still haven't seen too much of, and maybe that's because Smash Up's game play isn't very fun.

Well, hold up, I think Smash-Up's game play is plenty fun. But we can discuss that another time.

Ultimately my point is that shuffle-building as a concept is really cool, and I think there are some games waiting to be made with that idea that could take the world by storm.

Let's not pretend that Smash Up hasn't done well for itself, though. It's done great.

It has done great!

There are a ton of expansions and I applaud the creators. Fantastic idea.

Yes.

Somewhat similar, actually, I'm going to toot our own horn a bit, we didn't know about Smash Up when were first conceptualizing Ivion. There is the same sort of concept with our game in that deck building can be really overwhelming if you simply drop someone into it. Especially if there is a huge, online meta, it's not easy knowing where to start. In Ivion, our answer to that was that you start with two Classes and a Specialization, and you build from those three card pools.

Yeah, though I can't say I feel like we've succeeded in making it simpler for people. If anything, I'd say we made it harder. But I think that is due to how we sold Ivion, which was a major mistake.

Yeah.

I like to imagine Ivion in a similar sense. What if you picked two Classes, a Spec, and that was your deck? You smash it together. It still gives you combos, it still gives you choice, it gives you combinations you can apply to make things your own, but it makes things so much more approachable and marketable. You know, someone can see 'Oh, warriors are cool, but so are *dragons*. I'm a dragon warrior.'

Yep. If Aislyn and I were to make a second edition of Ivion, that would be one of the things we would consider. Sorry folks, but we would potentially take away the deck building.

Oof. Harsh words.

Well, take away—

Right through the heart.

Pick two Classes and a Specialization. Go. That's where we lie on this, though. Deck building is great and wonderful for the people who like it. But most people don't like it. And those people are potential customers that deserve to have fun.

Yeah, and the thing is that... competitive card games, and that genre, the game play is really, really cool. It's really fun, and really interesting. There's a lot of neat interactions. And I think there is a huge market for it. Even now, when you have to build decks, and you have to take these massive steps to get involved. But imagine the reach and the audience—I suppose like Keyforge or Smash Up, where you're taking the great aspects about these card games and make it accessible. I guess what I'm trying to say is, bring it into the modern world. I think there is an argument to be made that deck building and choosing every card individually is an archaic concept. It was invented by Richard Garfield and was very cool at the time, but it's kind of unapproachable. I think a major theme in game design innovation is... 'how do you make your game easier to approach?'

Well, I think you said it very well the other day when you said that we've seen a resurgence in card games, but we haven't really seen a resurgence in deck building. People haven't been particularly enthusiastic about that. I don't often hear people talk about that side of things.

I think there's always been this really small, percentage-wise, part of the community that thinks 'deck building is amazing, it's so cool how many different things you can do,' and once again, Aaron and I are in that group, we love it—

Yeah. I adore deck building.

—That's why we made Ivion! But there's a large group of people that enjoy card game game play, but to them, deck building has been... *sighs* Well, it's just been there. And it's just kind of accepted and standard at this point.

Something interesting about this is how it applies to digitalized versions of this genre we've seen. One of the ways these games make money is micro-transactions that speed up the progress of unlocking the content that you're looking for. A lot of players don't like deck building, and games like Hearthstone, Elder Scrolls: Legends, and Arena allow you to bypass that deck building aspect by supplying sample decks to play, and the ability to focus in on cards you want.

I think Arena is a really good example of this because it supplies you with... what, ten decks? They're pre-made, obviously they're not 'the best' decks you could be playing, but they properly create consistent themes, they're relatively good, and it's easy to understand the neat interactions they create. I've played a decent amount of Arena, and I'm sure Wizards has data on this, but I see a lot of people just playing those decks.

Mhm. And I think that's because a lot of people like the game play of Magic, but may not like the strain of deck building. Something I will say, however, is that for some people, like us, the appeal is putting your identity into your deck. With games like Smash Up, that's a lot harder. You're choosing two things, but everybody else can put those two together and have the same deck.

Yeah.

This is where I think Keyforge has found an interesting middle ground. It's not deck building, but your deck is still your own. It's going to be interesting to see if they've nailed that middle ground to appeal to multiple groups.

I agree, and I think this is the direction that we're going to see games in this genre in the future. It's certainly something that I'm very interested in if and when we make another game in this genre.

So, we just go home from our walk. And I think the question we have for you is this: Is moving away from customization and deck building good for games in general?

And another question I have for you is: Do you think Keyforge's direction with it's procedural deck generation a good thing or a bad thing? Do you think that it will succeed?

We'd love to hear what you think and why.

Yeah!

I think that'll be it this time. Thanks for reading!

Can't wait to hear what you guys think!

Whew! That'll do it! What do you want to see next with Design & Conquer? We've got a lot of weird knowledge stored in our heads, so hit us up and we may run with it. Thanks for reading!